Muzzle Loaders Association of Great Britain - Springfield 45/55 Carbine model 1879

Jan 5^th, 2011 at 11:27pm

Dead I Offline
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In the US there is an ongoing debate about Custer's last battle. His troopers were using an 1873 Springfield carbine loaded with the 45/55 load and a 405 grain bullet. This is a Model 1879 Springfield carbine; close to a Custer battle gun.

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Reply #1 - Jan 5^th, 2011 at 11:28pm

Dead I Offline
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More pictures of a Springfield Carbine model 1879

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Reply #2 - Jan 6^th, 2011 at 12:56am

Dead I Offline
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While it probably doesn't mean much to Englishmen, in debates over here one cause one can lose teeth over the Battle of Little Bighorn. Was Custer good or bad, right or wrong, smart or clueless?

I don't think there is a similar counter in English history that lights people up like this battle with Indians. I don't think the English come to blows over Isandlwana.

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Reply #3 - Jan 6^th, 2011 at 5:42am

Dead I Offline
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This is an 1879 Springfield. Custer's troop used an 1873 issue of the same carbine. The Indians captured a number of cavalry carbines and used them agains other elements of Custer's forces, who survived the battle. The Indians picked up fired cases and bullets and attempted to make reloads. Here is one of them:

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Reply #4 - Jan 6^th, 2011 at 5:48am

Dead I Offline
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This homebrewed cartridge was made by an Indian. He was trying to reload a cartridge case and bullet picked up after the Custer battle. He held the bullet in place by biting the cartridge case. You can see the rifling grooves in the bullet and it's blunt tip, so it has been fired once already. The priming is probably broken off matches, but I have not torn down this cartridge to see what is inside. However it is neat, because the bullet and case were probably fired during the Battle of Little Bighorn, which makes it sort of sacred. This was picked up where the large Indian camp was, so it must have been made on the night of 25 June, 1876.

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Reply #5 - Jan 6^th, 2011 at 11:06am

FBoulton Offline
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I have Custer's book: "My Life on the Plains". He does not come across as being mad or irresposible, but is amazingly honest about his mistakes---like going out hunting in hostile territory and shooting his own horse through the head!
Fred

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Reply #6 - Jan 6^th, 2011 at 11:07am

FBoulton Offline
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By the way, trapdoor Springfileds are quite popular here in the UK. Until recently, good shootable originals in 50-70 were quite cheap to buy.
Fred

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Reply #7 - Jan 6^th, 2011 at 6:21pm

Dead I Offline
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FBoulton wrote on Jan 6^th, 2011 at 11:07am:

By the way, trapdoor Springfileds are quite popular here in the UK. Until recently, good shootable originals in 50-70 were quite cheap to buy.
Fred

I think those Allen 50/70's were wonderful antique guns. I recall when they were relatively cheap....like $450 but that was 25 years ago. They are also fun to shoot. Custer carried an officer's model Allen trapdoor for a few years.

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Reply #8 - Jan 6^th, 2011 at 6:24pm

Dead I Offline
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FBoulton wrote on Jan 6^th, 2011 at 11:07am:

By the way, trapdoor Springfileds are quite popular here in the UK. Until recently, good shootable originals in 50-70 were quite cheap to buy.
Fred

They are making a replica trapdoor again, both rifles and carbines. They are great guns. Ammo is easy to find and you can shoot at things 1,000 yards away. Loaded the old fashioned way the rifle does't kick much. The carbine isn't that bad either.

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Reply #9 - Jan 6^th, 2011 at 8:12pm

FBoulton Offline
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yes. We have a couple of repro trapdoors in our club. I used to have a Danish rolling block which would beat them any day of the week. Nowadays I shoot the black powder comps with a Mauser 71 / 84.
Fred

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Reply #10 - Jan 7^th, 2011 at 8:10pm

Dead I Offline
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FBoulton wrote on Jan 6^th, 2011 at 8:12pm:

yes. We have a couple of repro trapdoors in our club. I used to have a Danish rolling block which would beat them any day of the week. Nowadays I shoot the black powder comps with a Mauser 71 / 84.
Fred

In the 70's a bunch of those Danish Rolling Blocks were imported to the US. Cost was $14.50 and the bayonet was an additional $1.75. Original caliber was 11.7x51 Danish Rolling Block. The importer relieved the barrel a little to accept a 45/70 shell. I bought one of these and still have it along with the bayonet, which is a very long and heavy affair. I have NEVER shot it! Bore is like new. I've been shooting these old trapdoors instead.

Let's do a thread on the Rolling Block. I'll take pictures of mine (I like taking pictures, can you guess?) Other guys on the Sainted Isle who shoot then can chime in and discuss their loads etc. Maybe I'll be notivated to shoot mine!

« Last Edit: Jan 7^th, 2011 at 10:57pm by Dead I »

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Reply #11 - Jan 7^th, 2011 at 8:17pm

Dead I Offline
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FBoulton wrote on Jan 6^th, 2011 at 8:12pm:

yes. We have a couple of repro trapdoors in our club. I used to have a Danish rolling block which would beat them any day of the week. Nowadays I shoot the black powder comps with a Mauser 71 / 84.
Fred

How do the members like the repro trapdoors?

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Reply #12 - Jan 7^th, 2011 at 10:22pm

FBoulton Offline
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We have two sorts of members: the ones who will try, if possible, to shoot originals and the ones who don't care.
I have heard no criticism of the repro trapdoors. The 45-70 round has a big following in the UK and in our club. Shooters of originals like to adapt dies, brass and bullets.
There are some other advantages in shooting originals, if they are in calibres classed as obselete by the UK government and were made before 1939 they can be purchased without the need for a licence. You add them to to your FAC when you want to shoot them and take them off if you want to give up shooting them. Looking for a Rolling block? If you want a new one, you need authority to purchase and that includes the calibre. Originals, you can search the antiques fairs, buy a nice one, find out what calibre it is, source the dies and mould and THEN licence it---much better.
Fred

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Reply #13 - Jan 7^th, 2011 at 11:07pm

Dead I Offline
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Posts: 383

I'm sorry that you folks have to jump through all of those hoops just to shoot an old gun. Americans read about the regulations that you have to adhere to and we break out into a cold sweat. I am glad that your government makes as exception for shooting original guns. I doubt many banks are going to be robbed by a guy using a trapdoor rifle.

I'll break out my Rolling Block and photograph it. Good old ones used to be cheap and easy to find. People made lamps out of them! Are many of your club members shooting the Mauser 71's and 71/84's? You said you are. I've shot my 71, but never the 71/84. The rifling is very different between the two guns. I had some Canadian ammo and shot it all up. I am the only person who I have ever seen shoot one of these old BP Mausers. I wonder why because they are great shooters. That 71/84 is heavy as lead! Except for a chip in the toe of the stock mine looks new. Cost $24 in 1972.

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Reply #14 - Jan 8^th, 2011 at 1:41pm

FBoulton Offline
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My 71-84 is in mint condition and shoots so well that I have gradually abandoned Martini-Henrys, Rolling Blocks and am considering giving up shooting my Snider. There is one other 7-84in use in our club plus a 71,and a whole lot of Sniders, Martinis etc.(www.stourportonsevernpistolnrifleclub.co.uk), but you see more at Bisley in the Trafalgar and Historic Arms meetings. it is a very easy rifle to load for: Bertram do the brass, which is very good if you anneal it before use and Lyman make a good .446 mould. I won the 200yd off-hand vintage military rifle with mine at the last Trafalgar meeting.
Fred

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