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I found this gun... (Read 3130 times)
Apr 11th, 2012 at 11:17am

Paul C   Offline
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Hi, I'm new here and on the hunt for some information.
When sorting through my late Father in Law's workshop I came across what I think is an Enfield pattern "short" carbine (musket) from around 1860. It has Wilkinson, London engraved on the side plate. It does not appear to be rifled but that could be me not looking hard enough. To my eyes it seems in pretty good condition. Although, Trevor was brought up on a remote Welsh farm and served in India in WW2 so he knew his way around weapons.
At this stage I'm just hunting for information??
What is it?
Is it within the law to keep it?
Any information would be great, thanks, Paul...

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Reply #1 - Apr 11th, 2012 at 12:11pm

GJ   Offline
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North Wales

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It is an Enfield pattern short rifle for rifle regiments and for sargeants in other regiments.
Any  muzzle loading firearm made before 1939 is an antique and can be kept "as a curio or ornament" unless you want to shoot it. Then it has to be put on an FAC for rifles and pistols or on an SGC for a shotgun.

The proof marks are interesting. Not that I am an expert but it appears to have been reproved under the London rules of proof after 1925. 

The marks from left to right read,
No 1, Preliminary black powder proof (lion over a fancy letter G).
No 2, View mark(crown over V).
No 3, Bore size. 25 bore approx, .577.
No 4, Final black powder proof for use with nitro powders or in this case, final black powder proof for smooth bore muzzle loaders (crown over intertwined CP).

The reproof marks (if that what they are) suggests to me that it may have been smooth bored in the 1920's perhaps to be kept without having to apply for an FAC as was required for all rifles and pistols after 1920. Or to be used as a shotgun which did not need any police authority to be kept and used. Any removal of metal on the barrel required a reproof.

GJ
    

 
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Reply #2 - Apr 11th, 2012 at 12:25pm

Paul C   Offline
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Thanks
 
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Reply #3 - Apr 11th, 2012 at 2:41pm

Mainspring   Offline
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Derbyshire.

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Paul nice find,if you want to check the rifle for rifling this can be done by having a tight cleaning cloth on a rod and watching for the rod to turn as it progresses down the barrel.you can put a chalk mark and watch for it turning.Take care not to lose the cloth down the Barrel.
The rifle is antique and absolutely legal to own.If you wish to shoot it, it must be put it on a Firearms Certificate.
                                        Regards.
 
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Reply #4 - Apr 12th, 2012 at 9:18am

Paul C   Offline
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Thanks, the inside is a little rusty. I'll see how some cloth works. I live just outside Burton on Trent. I see you might be local...
 
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Reply #5 - Apr 12th, 2012 at 1:08pm

Mainspring   Offline
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Derbyshire.

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West Hallam near Ilkeston.
Steel wool on a rod should derust sufficiently to check for Rifling.
                    Regards.
 
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Reply #6 - Apr 30th, 2012 at 8:13pm

Paul C   Offline
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I started giving the gun a gentle clean yesterday. Here's a bit more detail of those proof marks...

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I've since spoken to Trevors brother, Fred. He remembers this being around the farm when they were children but, so far as he is aware, it was never used as they had shotguns on the farm for "pests".

I'm not sure if we'll be keeping this as firearms are not really our thing. If anyone is seriously interested let me know.
 
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Reply #7 - May 6th, 2012 at 9:58pm

JonHuggett   Offline
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worcestershire

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Hi Paul,

I know you are trying to move this rifle on but the following link should be of interest and will give some more insight into the stamps and markings:

http://www.enfield-snider.com/Markings%20-%20Barrels.htm

As GJ says from his post...This is covered by section 58a of the 1968 'Firearms and Licensing Act' which classifies this as an antique and this can be owned by anyone as essentially curio. If you intend to use it as a 'gun' then it requires Section 1 authority on your license...

As an antique it can easily be posted to a purchaser (I have used 'TNT' and 'parcelforce' in the past) should you go down that route....

Did you manage to work out if it has been smooth bored?

Regards Jon
 
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Reply #8 - May 13th, 2012 at 4:23am

Southron   Offline
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Georgia, USA

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Heck, if that rifle was mine and it had been smoothbored, I would send the barrel to Danny Whitaker at the Whitaker Machine Shop in Whitaker, VA. I would have him to install a .577 rifled liner in it and in a heartbeat, I would have it "sighted in" and shooting!!!

You would be very pleasantly surprised if you were to learn how to shoot it and care for it. Join the MLAGB and meet some Wonderful people-they will show you how to shoot that rifle!!!!
 
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Reply #9 - May 13th, 2012 at 9:10am

PG   Offline
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As I understand it, lining the barrel back to .577 rifled would require a reproof and make the gun a section one firearm requiring it to be on certificate.
 
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Reply #10 - May 13th, 2012 at 6:36pm

Feltwad   Offline
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No malice intended ,but if the gun was original built has a smooth bore and to fix a .577 rifle sleeve  would we then have another Fake?
Feltwad
 
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Reply #11 - May 13th, 2012 at 8:50pm

bill_curtis   Offline
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Wales

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As this is configured as a rifle with proper rifle sights, I suspect that it is still rifled and the owner has not yet cleaned and examined the bore sufficiently.  When these rifles were smoothbored for use as shotguns the sights were normally taken off.

There is a possibility, if it has been smoothbored, that someone before the war was conforming to the 1937 Act which required a licence for rifles and at that time the police generally accepted only flintlocks as genuine antiques. Pure speculation and, in any case, I would want to see a full set of photos with ALL marks and to hear just exactly what is the state of the bore.
 

W. S. (Bill) Curtis
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Reply #12 - May 23rd, 2012 at 8:49am

Paul C   Offline
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Thanks for all the support folks... much appreciated.
You need to consider I don't really know what rifleing may look look like on a gun of this vintage. I've taken a few photographs. I can make out some lines... are they rifle grooves... scratches... my imagination?
Thanks.

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Reply #13 - May 23rd, 2012 at 9:21am

bill_curtis   Offline
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Wales

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I am pretty sure that I can see rifling under all that rust. What you need is a small pen light torch which you drop down the barrel and that will show it even if it is rusty. This type of rifle has very wide shallow grooves, either three or five in number.
 

W. S. (Bill) Curtis
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Reply #14 - May 26th, 2012 at 10:38pm

Robin_G_Hewitt   Offline
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Paul C wrote on May 23rd, 2012 at 8:49am:
  I don't really know what rifleing may look look like on a gun of this vintage.


Hi

I think it is already ruined as a rifle  Smiley

Personally I'd plug the nipple, fill the bore with organic rust remover, ebay, leave it for a day and then a mad rush to dry it and get some rust prevention in the pits before the rust comes back. At least you could see what you've got and the rot would be stopped.

Good luck

Robin
 
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